The Perseus Books Group Message Boards Forum Index The Perseus Books Group Message Boards
Book discussion forums
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

fluad coming to the UsA?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Perseus Books Group Message Boards Forum Index -> Vaccine-A
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
forrest shalom
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 4:31 am    Post subject: fluad coming to the UsA? Reply with quote

shalom gary,

do you have any data to share on what fluad has done to
people in italy and elsewhere in europe?

also, how soon do you think fluad will be introduced to the general
population in america?


thanks again my friend,

forrest
Back to top
Gary M - Author
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply to forrest shalom, RE: fluad coming to the usa? Reply with quote

Dear forrest: I have no hard data on the effects of Fluad in Europe. Potentially meaningful data should exist only in Italy where Fluad has been available to elderly patients (over 65) since 1997. Prior to this summer, Fluad's use was restricted to Italy, Germany and Spain. In the summer of 2004, the EEU approved it for distribution throughout the European Union, but its use would have only commenced this flu season, which means its use throughout the EEU would have only begun recently. What's more, Fluad is only be one of many flu vaccines available to Europeans. These variables, along with the fact that Fluad was mainly administered to an elderly population in whom the early effects of autoimmunity (e.g., fatigue and joint pain) would be perceived as anything other than the effects of aging. I discuss Fluad in Chapter Ten of VACCINE A. You should give that another look.

In the meantime, I have at least one story to tell you that is not in the book. For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, at least one Italian doctor gave Fluad to a 21 year-old patient, a girl, who within a month of of receiving this shot developed discoid lupus. As you know, the University of Florida Medical School has demonstrated that squalene injections in mice have induced the immunological responses specific to lupus and, as I have reported in my book, many veterans of the first Gulf War, and now active duty military personnel who received anthrax shots proven to contain squalene by the FDA, have developed lupus or multiple sclerosis (MS is another disease induced in animals by many different laboratories). When tested, the Italian girl with lupus did not have anti-squalene antibodies. However, her doctor still suspects a Fluad connection with her lupus because of the temporal association between her Fluad shot and her disease.

There are no government plans of which I am aware to introduce Fluad into the United States.

Sincerely,
Gary Matsumoto
Back to top
Trebor
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:10 pm    Post subject: FLUAD Lupus Case Reply with quote

Gary,
Question You mentioned above she didn't come up positive for antisqualene antibodies. How long after her Fluad shot did she get tested by Tulane?
Back to top
Gary M - Author
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply to Trebor; RE: Fluad lupus case Reply with quote

Dear Trebor: The young Italian patient developed fulminant lupus six weeks after her Fluad shot. Tulane tested her for anti-squalene antibodies (ASA) about a year later.

That this patient did not test positive for ASA does not eliminate Fluad/MF59 as a possible cause of her lupus. There are four classes of antibody: IgM, IgG, IgA and IgE. All four can be induced by oil adjuvant injection. IgG is the most common antibody in systemic infection, which is why Tulane chose to test for IgG only. However, the Italian lupus patient could have developed the other types of antibody to squalene, or none at all. She may have suffered injury from a "cell-mediated" (as opposed to antibody-mediated) reaction to squalene.

Sincerely,
Gary Matsumoto
Back to top
Trebor
Guest





PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:32 pm    Post subject: Cell Mediated Reply with quote

Question Gary, You mentioned above a "cell mediated" reaction as only one possibility for her reaction to Fluad. In our bodies, what's happening in such a case? Are our cells "misunderstanding" themselves as enemies and fighting against eachother?

Can cell mediated reactions occur with antibody mediated reactions or are they mutually exclusive to eachother? I'm guessing it depends on our genetic profile and the antigen presented. Your thoughts?

Your message above about all these other types of antisqualene antibodies (that may exist) is a surefire call for a more comprehensive study on us recipients of the Anthrax vaccine. Apparently, Tulane has touched just the tip of the iceberg--and their work is highly commendable.

Thanks in advance! Very Happy
Back to top
Gary M - Author
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply to Trebor, RE: Cell Mediated Reply with quote

Dear Trebor: There are two "arms" of the immune system: innate and adaptive. Innate is the first line of defense; phagocytes (macrophages and neutrophils) and natural killer cells in the innate immune system are the body's "first responders." They attack invading pathogens, but don't remember anything in particular about the germs they attack; these cells just make a meal of germs, literally; phagocytes gobble them up like Pac-Men. Cells in the adaptive system, however, like B-cells, respond very specifically to germs by making unique antibodies to them; antibodies are one of the most highly specific biological responses in the living world.

Thee two systems are not mutually exclusive; normally they act in concert. You will notice that both systems involve cells, and there are more than two dozen different cells in the human immune system that perform different jobs. When I referred to a "cell-mediated" response I was referring to T-cells, which do not make antibodies. Scientists have demonstrated that pathogenic (disease inducing) immune responses to oil molecules have been mediated by T-cells. Tulane is showing that there may also be a pathogenic antibody-mediated response. At a minimum, Tulane believes the anti-squalene antibody is a marker for injection with a vaccine containing squalene. The antibody itself is not absolute proof that it leads to disease. It is evidence, however, of an immune response against a self molecule, and that is the essence of autoimmunity. In the case of squalene, it is an immune response against an oil molecule found in the nervous system and brain.

Col. Alving and his cohorts at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research initially claimed that they only found IgM anti-squalene antibodies in mice. Now they claim to have also detected "naturally occuring" IgG anti-squalene antibodies in both animals and humans.

I'm not sure it's worth going on an antibody hunt for the other types. There are actually five classes of antibody. I forgot IgD (IgD is easy to overlook; it only comprises 1% of all antibodies produced and only sticks around for 2-3 days). Two to three days is what you would call IgD's "half life"; a half-life is the time required for a substance to be diminished by one half of its original level. IgE is another antibody that doesn't hang around for very long. It constitutes 1% of the antibodies produced IgA comprises 5-15% of antibodies produced and has a half-life of 6 days. IgM comprises 5-10% of all antibodies produced and its half-life is 5 days. IgG comprises 85% of all antibodies, and its half-life is 23 days.

While antibodies in general have short half-lives, the prospect of detecting antibodies with a short half-life, long after the initial exposure, is theoretically possible with autoimmunity (though I don't know how probable) because the body's immune system is responding to a substance that the body makes. Once the body's natural tolerance for a self molecule like squalene is broken, making squalene thereafter is like giving yourself a booster shot of the stuff. That's what happens with autoimmunity, self boosting with a self-produced immunogen that is now the lynchpin in an endless self-destructive loop.

You can have a T-cell mediated immune response to squalene without producing IgG anti-squalene antibodies.

Sincerely,
Gary Matsumoto
Back to top
Trebor
Guest





PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: Evidence Reply with quote

So the real "fingerprint" in this crime is found with Tulane's test--not by AVIP's preposterous claims of someone's grubby little hands getting into a very small vial of vaccine at the FDA. Forensics at it's best!

Thanks for your explanation Gary. It helps alot.

Sincerely,
BR
Back to top
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Perseus Books Group Message Boards Forum Index -> Vaccine-A All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Protected by Anti-Spam ACP